I would like the American public to know that I (and all other atheists) are just as human as theists—we aren’t morally bankrupt or incapable of feeling hope or happiness.
You mean Mr. Behe didn’t become an atheist because he perversely decided he wanted a “meaningless” life?
Ryan, unfortunately, made a serious mistake. I blogged about it at Satan’s Blog: http://wp.me/p14HPl-Bf. Search “atheist” for my many other views on atheists, who are nothing more than pre-theists. Ha ha ha ha ha.
There are a number of biblical passages that thoroughly explain what went wrong here. Perhaps this is one of them.
Proverbs 27:11Amplified Bible (AMP)
11″My son, be wise, and make my heart glad, that I may answer him who reproaches me [as having failed in my parental duty].”
or
Proverbs 27:11Good News Translation (GNT)
11 “Be wise, my child, and I will be happy; I will have an answer for anyone who criticizes me.”
Sadly it was perhaps the parental fault[though not knowing for sure] of Mike Behe who spent more time at his career as opposed to actual parenting and instilling proper understanding of an Inteeligent Designer. However, I’m not all together sure Behe is even Christian anyway. Therein could be the issue. But in a world failing religiously, politically, financially and socially on all global fronts, it’s no wonder most young people today with no hope for a possitive future turn to a worldview which offers nothing more than, ” . . eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die”
I would say the world is only failing religiously by continuing to offer false hope to people with “no hope for a positive future”. Look at history: the least religious societies, the most humanistic ones, are the ones where people can meet their survival needs and don’t have to hope for a future fantasy because reality is so dismal. The obverse is also true. Young people today are turning to a worldview that embraces reality and recognizes that The time to be happy is now. The place to be happy is here. The way to be happy is to make others so.” (Robert Green Ingersoll)
Has anyone looked into the possibility that christianity could decline because it just bores modern people too much? I notice that today’s children want to read everything about Harry Potter, and they will even try to do so in defiance of their parents’ prohibitions; yet they generally don’t want to read or hear about Jesus unless their.elders make them.
Ian:
‘I would say the world is only failing religiously by continuing to offer
false hope to people with “no hope for a positive future”.
…………………….
Let’s be further honest. The religious world is failing because it’s leadership doesn’t practice what they preach, or at least what their Holy Bible teaches.
Ian:
‘Look at history: the least religious societies, the most humanistic
ones, are the ones where people can meet their survival needs and don’t
have to hope for a future fantasy because reality is so dismal.’
…………………….
No let’s be further honest. Atheistic societies have their own failed ideological problems as can be seen when historical Communism(pure unadulterated Atheism at it’s raw animalistic best) ruled with an Iron Fist and eventually failed itself when forcing it’s own brand of Paradise through “Convert or Die by the AK-47”.
Modern so called humanistic or progressive secularism also has no more answers as to what ails mankind than most of the religious leaders of Earth’s past history. In fact Humanist organizations are actually mirror images of ALL failures that came before them.
Ian:
‘ Young people today are turning to a worldview that embraces reality and recognizes that The time to be happy is now.’
…………………….
No, most young people throughout history have always turned avenues of tripping out, turning on and escaping a world which offers no lasting hope other than instant gratification (NOW as you put it) and it doesn’t matter who is in charge of that world. Hence most young people have no real life when more and more modern technology entraps them into world’s of multiple fantasy. Most of the Atheists on these War Forums are addicted online gamers that spend most of their lives in Virtual Reality, NOT reality. ILLUSION is always prefered over Reality. This is why Evolutionism is a perfect escape, since all issues of accountability for consequences of actions are erased and consciences are hardened.
Religion has it’s own bloodguilt to pay for which I hope will happen soon. After that Humanism will suffer the same fate.
Atheistic societies have their own failed ideological problems as can be seen when historical Communism(pure unadulterated Atheism at it’s raw animalistic best) ruled with an Iron Fist and eventually failed itself when forcing it’s own brand of Paradise through “Convert or Die by the AK-47”.
Atheism has grown organically in most developed democratic societies where people have civil rights and religious freedom; this has happened without any government policy to bring this about. In fact, American christians readily take their families on vacation to countries with pluralities of atheists like France, Australia, Japan, Sweden, etc., because they obviously feel safe there.
And communist Cuba, despite the negative propaganda about it in the U.S., even attracts about 2 million tourists a year:
‘Atheism has grown organically in most developed democratic societies
where people have civil rights and religious freedom; this has happened
without any government policy to bring this about. In fact,’
Organically? You mean like with Spears, Bows and Arrows? No, they actually exploded onto the scene using tanks, machine guns, concentration & Gulag Camps and Nuclear Weapons. Making excuses for them exposes your Religiosity. Christendom has been doing this for centuries.
adventistatheist
‘ American
christians readily take their families on vacation to countries with
pluralities of atheists like France, Australia, Japan, Sweden, etc.,
because they obviously feel safe there.’
You need to turn off the internet and get out more adventist. Watch the World News and see how failed the entire planet actually is. I live among those countries you referenced and the social climate stinks. Things are on the brink of collapse here. In fact some of the most biggoted cultures can be found here amount the more atheistic countries. The homogenous population resents the increase in immigration. And you thought that was a USA only problem?
Your in denial of your own Church’s deep dark history, but I see your faith is still intact. This makes your church equal to anything Catholic or Protestant.
You still haven’t substantiated your doomsday claims about the countries we’ve discussed. Has the U.S. State Department issued travel warnings against going to any of them because of their impending social chaos, for example?
Bashan is obviously smoking something or stuck in his(her?) own cultural ghetto. I live 1/2 time is a European country. There is plenty of un-happiness about immigration, but mostly among the older and conservative. Social chaos? Some in the UK and France, but the rest of secular Europe (in the north) is still more peaceful than the US — in which I live the other 1/2 of the year
Bashan is obviously a troll or he would have stopped responding
by now. From now on, he will use code words and phrases to define those he disagrees with. For him,
all discussion has ended, so he
will attempt to do nothing but
waste peoples’ time by insulting
them and not saying anything
worth reading. I repeat, Bashan is
a troll – probably one who has
pulled this kind of stunt under different nyms and under different topics. You get to recognize the pattern after you’ve seen it enough times.
BTW, has the U.S. State Department issued travel warnings about these other countries because of their “failed” conditions? I don’t see any developed democratic country on this list:
Wow Bashan, That’s a pretty dim view of young people. Most young people that I know (and I know many) are thoughtful, thinking adults. They are turning away from organized religion at a high rate and a smaller group are rejecting belief entirely. It has nothing to do with “tripping out” or on-line games, or pursuit of hedonism. They see that modern organized religion and belief are associated with backwards social attitudes and are incompatible with logic and reason.
Facts: with the exception of the US all countries a high standard of living and good economic prosperity are turning away from religion. And it’s now pretty easy to see the US slipping in the other direction — down the economic ladder.
‘Facts: with the exception of the US all countries a high standard of
living and good economic prosperity are turning away from religion.’
………………………
Have you actually been watching the World News lately Jonathan? I live in Europe and recently visted the USA and commented to friends and family how the News in the United States is not carrying the constant economic upset, riots and racial hatreds expressed by the homogenous peoples against 3rd world immigrants and refugees. And you thought that only happened in the States by Right-Wingers?
What makes you think that I live in the US? Or that I am unaware of European unrest resulting from the world-wide economic downturn and changing demographics from immigration?
The facts are that economic disparity as measured by income ratios, access to health care, social safety nets for unemployment, etc. are closely associated with civil unrest and instability. And these negative economic indicators are also closely associated with religious belief. No one knows what is cause and what is effect, but the correlation is very clear.
The northern European countries and Japan are among the least religious in the world and have by most objective measures the most economic security and stability.
And no, I am not religious. I think religion is a relic with no place in the modern world. It’s net effect on the world has been negative.
Well Bashan, your last comment was very productive. I suppose that means you’re finished discussing in a reasonable fashion. Have you retreated into your biblical cave?
Seriously Jonathan, how does anyone have a reasonable conversation with a brainwashed Fundie like you ?
What you don’t understand is that your own Cult’s worldview is no different than anything Catholic, Protestant or even Islamic. ALL cults including your’s need removal if this planet is to survive.
This is where it always ends up with Christians – namecalling. There is a point when discussion stops and they retreat to their dogma, ignoring all previous discussion. Bashan continues to think that the rest of the world must be buried in some mindless cult like his. Sad ignorant minds.
No Jonathan, this is what is called Double standard and Pot calling Kettle black. The hypocracy behind Atheism is astounding and once again you obviously need reminding that your religion is the very mirror image of anything Catholic, Protestant or Islamic. ALL these religions including yours needs removing if this planet is to survive.
I think young people today are the same as young and old people alike for eons they’ve always embraced reality and still do, what changes is the belief in what “reality” actually consists of. Whatever your reality is, everyone who believes it not, is stupid. Of course, these stupid also know you to be stupid. Both are probably fairly near correct.
But in a world failing religiously, politically, financially and socially on all global fronts, it’s no wonder most young people today with no hope for a possitive future turn to a worldview which offers nothing more than, ” . . eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die”
We have it really good for living in such a “failure” of a world. You can watch Hans Rosling’s video for some empirical evidence:
So, it’all Barack Obama’s fault? Lol, you’re making an awful lot of ASSumptions from that article. How do you know how much time Mike Behe spent being a parent? And you’re not sure if he is even Christian anyway? I love how you “religious” people like to invoke your ever changing definition of who is a “Christian.” It seems most of you believe that anyone who doesn’t believe exactly as you do is not a “Christian.” By the way, the world failing politically, financially and socially is mostly related to greed and corruption created and perpetrated by “Christians, ” “Muslims” and other so called people of faith. I for one believe that this corruption by the religious may be our best opportunity to pull people out of religious dogma and get them to accept reason. Our society will never advance as long as we base everything on Daddy God in the Sky who justifies the greed and corruption of those in power.
What a bright, thoughtful, engaging young man! I remain a
theist, but that doesn’t mean I can’t acknowledge the brilliance and sincerity
of those who feel otherwise. Leo Behe has a bright future ahead of him! – R. Wilson
Label yourself an atheist and watch theists try to turn anything you say into proof that you are fanatically religious about being non religious. I’ve been raised in a religious environment and I know people can be fooled, fool themselves, fool others and I know that it can happen again with something else.
Now that I’ve gone through the experience of being conned, mostly by people with good intentions who were conned themselves, I know better how the process works and it will be harder to trick me, but not impossible. Even though I’m not religious anymore, I know that the same mechanisms in my human brain that make us prone to error are still there but I can diminish its effects.
Theists: By now you’re are saying aha!! I have god! He’s my guide, he’s my rudder, I use god to overcome the limitations of my human brain, I don’t have that problem that proves my way is better.
Me: That would be great if it was true. I can see why you might get a fuzzy warm (and pretty smug too – you can high five all your believer buddies over that comeback) If that works for you and I can see how that could work for some people. I think that is a way of using imagery to calm your emotions and broaden your perspective on a troubling issue at a time when the most natural thing to do is panic and obsess over minor details that don’t matter. That’s just using psychology and meditation to overcome a difficult situation, it wasn’t a vengeful deity who wants you to murder disobedient children, adulterers, and beat your slaves.
And don’t think that finding flaws in me is further proof that your theistic views are correct. Why is it so important to convince yourself that I (and every other atheist) are irrational and fanatical in our beliefs? I say that because when I hear theists arguing, (not debating, but fighting) that’s one of the points that they make the biggest stretch for and it seems like the theists are obsessed with showing atheists are religious fanatics.
Religion never gave me a “fuzzy warm” feeling. In fact, prayer has always given me the creeps. I remember feeling that way about it even as a child. It looks like behavior you’d see in a psychiatric facility.
i also have to laugh when theists call atheism a “religion.” Don’t they implicitly admit by doing so that they consider religion an unseemly thing?
yes – there does seem to be some fuse that is blown in the little minds of Christians. They are unable to grasp that atheism means No Belief, nothing analogous to the unreason in which they are mired. So their defense is to call us dogmatic and then to retreat back to their unthinking fairyland. Very sad and apparently incurable. But we can take solace that religion is declining among the young in the developed world, and those Christian fossils will eventually die out.
I’ve met a few people who had the good fortune to grow up as atheists, and to me they seem like characters from an advanced civilization out of science fiction. From hindsight I wish I could have grown up that way myself, instead of having to endure “rapture ready” Tulsa as a teenager in the 1970’s; though given my personality I probably wouldn’t have turned out as cool.
I’d like to change the framing so that we view atheists as metaphorical “immigrants from the future,” treat atheism as the New Normal and stop the politeness towards the more absurd aspects of christianity like the doomsday preaching.
I completely agree about stopping the politeness. This seems to be a motivation for “the New Atheists” like Richard Dawkins, etc., who are simply tired of the defective thinking pushed into public life by organized religion. I find myself being much more militant about this. Christians really do not like this, when their dogma is openly challenged. And they do not see the irony that we are simply reflecting their own tactics back onto them. They don’t see the symmetry in throwing their own historical evangelizing back in their faces with our own militancy.
A Pew poll last year found that 4 in 10 Americans believe that Jesus will “return,” whatever that means, by 2050. I would hardly call this a “fringe” belief when that many people hold some version of it. We need to New-Normalize atheism by stomping on this delusion, and hard.
This is hilarious when you stand outside that culture and look at it. Somehow these strangely American religious beliefs trump all the other traditions in the world and are the truth? All the other belief systems are also lunacy, but it’s hard to avoid laughing when you see the particular myopic arrogance of American Christianity.
After laughing at it, it is time to cry because of what it says about the level of rejection of logical thought.
I grew up an atheist – my parents allowed me to come to my own conclusions, and I did exactly that. I find some aspects of religion to be quite disturbing; the urge to demolish science displayed by the fundamentalists worries me quite deeply. Moral absolutes that promote deeply unethical behaviour give me the wiggins. On the other hand, there are more positive aspects that I’d like to see humanism adopt. Rituals, sans the mania, that bring people closer together – events that foster community spirit. We *need* these, as social creatures.
I’ve always loved churches, Bach organ recitals, and nuns…
So which are you? You introduce religion into your 5 paragraph message as if you somehow care. Is this proselytizing for humanism? I guess the bottom line is EVERYBODY is obsessed with showing EVERYBODY is “religious fanatics”. Oh, watch for Egoteneoism, coming to a theatre near you soon, you bunch of religious bigots! ‘er somethin’.
I wish my family were as accepting as Leo Behe’s is! I am 70 years old, and after struggling to force myself into the (Methodist) Christian mold for 67 years, I realized it was not working and never would. So I began my search for answers, and struck some of the same ones as this young man has. I found Prof. Bart D. Ehrman’s work particularly enlightening. Fortunately for Leo, he is young enough that his future is ahead of him, and he can make decisions that will allow him to live his non-theistic life to the fullest. I wish him the best. He, and those young folk like him, are the hope of the future.
I hear you, Rennyrij. I’m 73 and grew up in a fundamental Christian Baptist-type environment whose religious tenets were too often used as an easy way to escape personal responsibility for personal actions. More often than I care to admit, I did the same thing. Gradually, however, over a long period of time, my “faith” seemed to seep away as the questions grew. When I retired a few years ago I embarked on a search which began with the reading of numerous religious texts like the Bible and the Koran. I also read a number of books about atheism/theism/evolution and have also been taking a course on Astronomy. All of these interests and others besides led me to finally admit to myself that I really didn’t believe in a god anymore, nor in prayer, nor divine intervention, heaven, hell, etc. etc. I’m still trying to find my way through a thicket of “labels” like antheism, theism, naturalism, humanism, etc. in order to find my place in the scheme of things. The danger in using a term like “atheism” is that, to most people who have any kind of religious belief whatsoever, an atheist is even worse than a baby raper–far worse. To a believer, I guess the scariest and most threatening thing about atheism/nondeism is that it challenges their very deepest and most firmly held belief: that there is something or someone “out there” who really cares about us, read that “me,” and there really isn’t. That really doesn’t scare me anymore at all. But it sets me apart from perhaps 95% of the world which DOES believe that there is Someone Out There Who Cares. So atheism/nondeism/naturalism is both liberating and isolating. The question is, who can one turn to talk about such things, other than through sites such as this one. So … thanks for the opening.
I’m rather impressed that Michael Behe reacted as he did, with such diginity. It must have been an enormous shock for him, and it speaks well of his quaility that he took the news of Leo’s deconversion in such an adult and decent manner. For what it’s worth, although it’s not something I’ve ever experience myself, I have an great deal of empathy for people who lose their faith which is slightly ironic given that I’ve occasionally behaved like a rabid dog towards proselytising creationists.
I hope your family finds the compassion to understand that faith is not something that can be forced.
There’s little doubt that this young man is quite intelligent and has put much though behind his shift in beliefs. However, he’s only 21 and I can’t help but wonder whether he’ll revert back to Catholicism. By his own admission, he’s led a fairly sheltered life. It will be interesting to see if in 10 years he is still an atheist and whether he has achieved some of his goals in writing refutations of such greats as Aquinas. Those of us who are well past 21 know that the true test of one’s belief or lack thereof is in enduring the trials and hardships of life. Hopefully, he will endure them in stride and remain on the side of reason, not reverting back to superstition. Only time will tell.
Well, I left the Catholic church at 15, and here, 40 years later, after all the trials and hardships of life, I am still an atheist. I’m fairly optimistic about this bright young man’s future. And toppling the arguments of such “greats” as Aquinas has become something of a minor industry. Everybody does it at some point or another. It’s not all that hard.
“I was already a firm believer in intelligent design given my Catholic faith”
I find bizarre that Mr. Behe makes this claim. As a matter of fact, I was raised in one of the most Catholic countries in the world (Italy) and never did I hear about intelligent design before moving to the US. The Catholic Church, actually, fully accepts the theory of evolution by natural selection (quite possibly one of the handful of smart things that they do). I wonder how it is that Catholic children in the US are taught that creationism is part of their faith. ‘Cause it’s not.
So much for critical thinking. If Behe’s doubts about the Bible were sparked by what Dawkins – who has a Ph.D. in zoology and knows almost nothing about philosophy, theology, or textual criticism – wrote, then you really have to wonder what else was going on in his life. Teenage rebellion most likely. Rational thinking not so much.
I would like the American public to know that I (and all other atheists) are just as human as theists—we aren’t morally bankrupt or incapable of feeling hope or happiness.
You mean Mr. Behe didn’t become an atheist because he perversely decided he wanted a “meaningless” life?
Ryan, unfortunately, made a serious mistake. I blogged about it at Satan’s Blog: http://wp.me/p14HPl-Bf. Search “atheist” for my many other views on atheists, who are nothing more than pre-theists. Ha ha ha ha ha.
I would like to ask Leo if he has read his dad’s books.
There are a number of biblical passages that thoroughly explain what went wrong here. Perhaps this is one of them.
Proverbs 27:11Amplified Bible (AMP)
11″My son, be wise, and make my heart glad, that I may answer him who reproaches me [as having failed in my parental duty].”
or
Proverbs 27:11Good News Translation (GNT)
11 “Be wise, my child, and I will be happy; I will have an answer for anyone who criticizes me.”
Sadly it was perhaps the parental fault[though not knowing for sure] of Mike Behe who spent more time at his career as opposed to actual parenting and instilling proper understanding of an Inteeligent Designer. However, I’m not all together sure Behe is even Christian anyway. Therein could be the issue. But in a world failing religiously, politically, financially and socially on all global fronts, it’s no wonder most young people today with no hope for a possitive future turn to a worldview which offers nothing more than, ” . . eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die”
I would say the world is only failing religiously by continuing to offer false hope to people with “no hope for a positive future”. Look at history: the least religious societies, the most humanistic ones, are the ones where people can meet their survival needs and don’t have to hope for a future fantasy because reality is so dismal. The obverse is also true. Young people today are turning to a worldview that embraces reality and recognizes that The time to be happy is now. The place to be happy is here. The way to be happy is to make others so.” (Robert Green Ingersoll)
Has anyone looked into the possibility that christianity could decline because it just bores modern people too much? I notice that today’s children want to read everything about Harry Potter, and they will even try to do so in defiance of their parents’ prohibitions; yet they generally don’t want to read or hear about Jesus unless their.elders make them.
Ian:
‘I would say the world is only failing religiously by continuing to offer
false hope to people with “no hope for a positive future”.
…………………….
Let’s be further honest. The religious world is failing because it’s leadership doesn’t practice what they preach, or at least what their Holy Bible teaches.
Ian:
‘Look at history: the least religious societies, the most humanistic
ones, are the ones where people can meet their survival needs and don’t
have to hope for a future fantasy because reality is so dismal.’
…………………….
No let’s be further honest. Atheistic societies have their own failed ideological problems as can be seen when historical Communism(pure unadulterated Atheism at it’s raw animalistic best) ruled with an Iron Fist and eventually failed itself when forcing it’s own brand of Paradise through “Convert or Die by the AK-47”.
Modern so called humanistic or progressive secularism also has no more answers as to what ails mankind than most of the religious leaders of Earth’s past history. In fact Humanist organizations are actually mirror images of ALL failures that came before them.
Ian:
‘ Young people today are turning to a worldview that embraces reality and recognizes that The time to be happy is now.’
…………………….
No, most young people throughout history have always turned avenues of tripping out, turning on and escaping a world which offers no lasting hope other than instant gratification (NOW as you put it) and it doesn’t matter who is in charge of that world. Hence most young people have no real life when more and more modern technology entraps them into world’s of multiple fantasy. Most of the Atheists on these War Forums are addicted online gamers that spend most of their lives in Virtual Reality, NOT reality. ILLUSION is always prefered over Reality. This is why Evolutionism is a perfect escape, since all issues of accountability for consequences of actions are erased and consciences are hardened.
Religion has it’s own bloodguilt to pay for which I hope will happen soon. After that Humanism will suffer the same fate.
Thank God.
Atheistic societies have their own failed ideological problems as can be seen when historical Communism(pure unadulterated Atheism at it’s raw animalistic best) ruled with an Iron Fist and eventually failed itself when forcing it’s own brand of Paradise through “Convert or Die by the AK-47”.
Atheism has grown organically in most developed democratic societies where people have civil rights and religious freedom; this has happened without any government policy to bring this about. In fact, American christians readily take their families on vacation to countries with pluralities of atheists like France, Australia, Japan, Sweden, etc., because they obviously feel safe there.
And communist Cuba, despite the negative propaganda about it in the U.S., even attracts about 2 million tourists a year:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism_in_Cuba
adventistatheist:
‘Atheism has grown organically in most developed democratic societies
where people have civil rights and religious freedom; this has happened
without any government policy to bring this about. In fact,’
Organically? You mean like with Spears, Bows and Arrows? No, they actually exploded onto the scene using tanks, machine guns, concentration & Gulag Camps and Nuclear Weapons. Making excuses for them exposes your Religiosity. Christendom has been doing this for centuries.
adventistatheist
‘ American
christians readily take their families on vacation to countries with
pluralities of atheists like France, Australia, Japan, Sweden, etc.,
because they obviously feel safe there.’
You need to turn off the internet and get out more adventist. Watch the World News and see how failed the entire planet actually is. I live among those countries you referenced and the social climate stinks. Things are on the brink of collapse here. In fact some of the most biggoted cultures can be found here amount the more atheistic countries. The homogenous population resents the increase in immigration. And you thought that was a USA only problem?
1. Show me where I can find the “concentration & Gulag Camps” on Google Earth for Canada, France, Norway, Germany, Australia, New Zealand, etc.
2. “Brink of collapse”? You must have Europe confused with places like Libya and Syria.
Your in denial of your own Church’s deep dark history, but I see your faith is still intact. This makes your church equal to anything Catholic or Protestant.
Nice one Fundie!
You still haven’t substantiated your doomsday claims about the countries we’ve discussed. Has the U.S. State Department issued travel warnings against going to any of them because of their impending social chaos, for example?
Bashan is obviously smoking something or stuck in his(her?) own cultural ghetto. I live 1/2 time is a European country. There is plenty of un-happiness about immigration, but mostly among the older and conservative. Social chaos? Some in the UK and France, but the rest of secular Europe (in the north) is still more peaceful than the US — in which I live the other 1/2 of the year
Bashan is obviously a troll or he would have stopped responding
by now. From now on, he will use code words and phrases to define those he disagrees with. For him,
all discussion has ended, so he
will attempt to do nothing but
waste peoples’ time by insulting
them and not saying anything
worth reading. I repeat, Bashan is
a troll – probably one who has
pulled this kind of stunt under different nyms and under different topics. You get to recognize the pattern after you’ve seen it enough times.
With each post he heaps on more evidence that you are right.
But if he is not a troll, he has retreated into cliches and code-words and logical discussion is finished.
That is disappointing, but is a usual Christian defense when they feel under attack.
BTW, has the U.S. State Department issued travel warnings about these other countries because of their “failed” conditions? I don’t see any developed democratic country on this list:
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/tw/tw_1764.html
Wow Bashan, That’s a pretty dim view of young people. Most young people that I know (and I know many) are thoughtful, thinking adults. They are turning away from organized religion at a high rate and a smaller group are rejecting belief entirely. It has nothing to do with “tripping out” or on-line games, or pursuit of hedonism. They see that modern organized religion and belief are associated with backwards social attitudes and are incompatible with logic and reason.
Facts: with the exception of the US all countries a high standard of living and good economic prosperity are turning away from religion. And it’s now pretty easy to see the US slipping in the other direction — down the economic ladder.
Jonathan:
‘Facts: with the exception of the US all countries a high standard of
living and good economic prosperity are turning away from religion.’
………………………
Have you actually been watching the World News lately Jonathan? I live in Europe and recently visted the USA and commented to friends and family how the News in the United States is not carrying the constant economic upset, riots and racial hatreds expressed by the homogenous peoples against 3rd world immigrants and refugees. And you thought that only happened in the States by Right-Wingers?
You’re sound a little religious if you ask me.
What makes you think that I live in the US? Or that I am unaware of European unrest resulting from the world-wide economic downturn and changing demographics from immigration?
The facts are that economic disparity as measured by income ratios, access to health care, social safety nets for unemployment, etc. are closely associated with civil unrest and instability. And these negative economic indicators are also closely associated with religious belief. No one knows what is cause and what is effect, but the correlation is very clear.
The northern European countries and Japan are among the least religious in the world and have by most objective measures the most economic security and stability.
And no, I am not religious. I think religion is a relic with no place in the modern world. It’s net effect on the world has been negative.
Congradulations Fundie. You’ve dogmatically defended your own Church and Worldview as any other true Zealot would have done. You FAITH remains intact.
Well Bashan, your last comment was very productive. I suppose that means you’re finished discussing in a reasonable fashion. Have you retreated into your biblical cave?
Seriously Jonathan, how does anyone have a reasonable conversation with a brainwashed Fundie like you ?
What you don’t understand is that your own Cult’s worldview is no different than anything Catholic, Protestant or even Islamic. ALL cults including your’s need removal if this planet is to survive.
This is where it always ends up with Christians – namecalling. There is a point when discussion stops and they retreat to their dogma, ignoring all previous discussion. Bashan continues to think that the rest of the world must be buried in some mindless cult like his. Sad ignorant minds.
No Jonathan, this is what is called Double standard and Pot calling Kettle black. The hypocracy behind Atheism is astounding and once again you obviously need reminding that your religion is the very mirror image of anything Catholic, Protestant or Islamic. ALL these religions including yours needs removing if this planet is to survive.
Go for it Ideologue, spin another diatribe..
I think young people today are the same as young and old people alike for eons they’ve always embraced reality and still do, what changes is the belief in what “reality” actually consists of. Whatever your reality is, everyone who believes it not, is stupid. Of course, these stupid also know you to be stupid. Both are probably fairly near correct.
We have it really good for living in such a “failure” of a world. You can watch Hans Rosling’s video for some empirical evidence:
http://www.ted.com/talks/hans_rosling_shows_the_best_stats_you_ve_ever_seen.html
So, it’all Barack Obama’s fault? Lol, you’re making an awful lot of ASSumptions from that article. How do you know how much time Mike Behe spent being a parent? And you’re not sure if he is even Christian anyway? I love how you “religious” people like to invoke your ever changing definition of who is a “Christian.” It seems most of you believe that anyone who doesn’t believe exactly as you do is not a “Christian.” By the way, the world failing politically, financially and socially is mostly related to greed and corruption created and perpetrated by “Christians, ” “Muslims” and other so called people of faith. I for one believe that this corruption by the religious may be our best opportunity to pull people out of religious dogma and get them to accept reason. Our society will never advance as long as we base everything on Daddy God in the Sky who justifies the greed and corruption of those in power.
What a bright, thoughtful, engaging young man! I remain a
theist, but that doesn’t mean I can’t acknowledge the brilliance and sincerity
of those who feel otherwise. Leo Behe has a bright future ahead of him! – R. Wilson
Label yourself an atheist and watch theists try to turn anything you say into proof that you are fanatically religious about being non religious. I’ve been raised in a religious environment and I know people can be fooled, fool themselves, fool others and I know that it can happen again with something else.
Now that I’ve gone through the experience of being conned, mostly by people with good intentions who were conned themselves, I know better how the process works and it will be harder to trick me, but not impossible. Even though I’m not religious anymore, I know that the same mechanisms in my human brain that make us prone to error are still there but I can diminish its effects.
Theists: By now you’re are saying aha!! I have god! He’s my guide, he’s my rudder, I use god to overcome the limitations of my human brain, I don’t have that problem that proves my way is better.
Me: That would be great if it was true. I can see why you might get a fuzzy warm (and pretty smug too – you can high five all your believer buddies over that comeback) If that works for you and I can see how that could work for some people. I think that is a way of using imagery to calm your emotions and broaden your perspective on a troubling issue at a time when the most natural thing to do is panic and obsess over minor details that don’t matter. That’s just using psychology and meditation to overcome a difficult situation, it wasn’t a vengeful deity who wants you to murder disobedient children, adulterers, and beat your slaves.
And don’t think that finding flaws in me is further proof that your theistic views are correct. Why is it so important to convince yourself that I (and every other atheist) are irrational and fanatical in our beliefs? I say that because when I hear theists arguing, (not debating, but fighting) that’s one of the points that they make the biggest stretch for and it seems like the theists are obsessed with showing atheists are religious fanatics.
Religion never gave me a “fuzzy warm” feeling. In fact, prayer has always given me the creeps. I remember feeling that way about it even as a child. It looks like behavior you’d see in a psychiatric facility.
i also have to laugh when theists call atheism a “religion.” Don’t they implicitly admit by doing so that they consider religion an unseemly thing?
yes – there does seem to be some fuse that is blown in the little minds of Christians. They are unable to grasp that atheism means No Belief, nothing analogous to the unreason in which they are mired. So their defense is to call us dogmatic and then to retreat back to their unthinking fairyland. Very sad and apparently incurable. But we can take solace that religion is declining among the young in the developed world, and those Christian fossils will eventually die out.
I’ve met a few people who had the good fortune to grow up as atheists, and to me they seem like characters from an advanced civilization out of science fiction. From hindsight I wish I could have grown up that way myself, instead of having to endure “rapture ready” Tulsa as a teenager in the 1970’s; though given my personality I probably wouldn’t have turned out as cool.
I’d like to change the framing so that we view atheists as metaphorical “immigrants from the future,” treat atheism as the New Normal and stop the politeness towards the more absurd aspects of christianity like the doomsday preaching.
I completely agree about stopping the politeness. This seems to be a motivation for “the New Atheists” like Richard Dawkins, etc., who are simply tired of the defective thinking pushed into public life by organized religion. I find myself being much more militant about this. Christians really do not like this, when their dogma is openly challenged. And they do not see the irony that we are simply reflecting their own tactics back onto them. They don’t see the symmetry in throwing their own historical evangelizing back in their faces with our own militancy.
A Pew poll last year found that 4 in 10 Americans believe that Jesus will “return,” whatever that means, by 2050. I would hardly call this a “fringe” belief when that many people hold some version of it. We need to New-Normalize atheism by stomping on this delusion, and hard.
This is hilarious when you stand outside that culture and look at it. Somehow these strangely American religious beliefs trump all the other traditions in the world and are the truth? All the other belief systems are also lunacy, but it’s hard to avoid laughing when you see the particular myopic arrogance of American Christianity.
After laughing at it, it is time to cry because of what it says about the level of rejection of logical thought.
I grew up an atheist – my parents allowed me to come to my own conclusions, and I did exactly that. I find some aspects of religion to be quite disturbing; the urge to demolish science displayed by the fundamentalists worries me quite deeply. Moral absolutes that promote deeply unethical behaviour give me the wiggins. On the other hand, there are more positive aspects that I’d like to see humanism adopt. Rituals, sans the mania, that bring people closer together – events that foster community spirit. We *need* these, as social creatures.
I’ve always loved churches, Bach organ recitals, and nuns…
So which are you? You introduce religion into your 5 paragraph message as if you somehow care. Is this proselytizing for humanism? I guess the bottom line is EVERYBODY is obsessed with showing EVERYBODY is “religious fanatics”. Oh, watch for Egoteneoism, coming to a theatre near you soon, you bunch of religious bigots! ‘er somethin’.
I have an idea: We should replace the phrase “the New Atheism” with “the New Normal.”
it will take me more faith to believe these atheist..
@8304ab6be7a583e0e9dc09e1d8967d42:disqus
A Christian knuckle-dragger staggers by …
I wish my family were as accepting as Leo Behe’s is! I am 70 years old, and after struggling to force myself into the (Methodist) Christian mold for 67 years, I realized it was not working and never would. So I began my search for answers, and struck some of the same ones as this young man has. I found Prof. Bart D. Ehrman’s work particularly enlightening. Fortunately for Leo, he is young enough that his future is ahead of him, and he can make decisions that will allow him to live his non-theistic life to the fullest. I wish him the best. He, and those young folk like him, are the hope of the future.
I hear you, Rennyrij. I’m 73 and grew up in a fundamental Christian Baptist-type environment whose religious tenets were too often used as an easy way to escape personal responsibility for personal actions. More often than I care to admit, I did the same thing. Gradually, however, over a long period of time, my “faith” seemed to seep away as the questions grew. When I retired a few years ago I embarked on a search which began with the reading of numerous religious texts like the Bible and the Koran. I also read a number of books about atheism/theism/evolution and have also been taking a course on Astronomy. All of these interests and others besides led me to finally admit to myself that I really didn’t believe in a god anymore, nor in prayer, nor divine intervention, heaven, hell, etc. etc. I’m still trying to find my way through a thicket of “labels” like antheism, theism, naturalism, humanism, etc. in order to find my place in the scheme of things. The danger in using a term like “atheism” is that, to most people who have any kind of religious belief whatsoever, an atheist is even worse than a baby raper–far worse. To a believer, I guess the scariest and most threatening thing about atheism/nondeism is that it challenges their very deepest and most firmly held belief: that there is something or someone “out there” who really cares about us, read that “me,” and there really isn’t. That really doesn’t scare me anymore at all. But it sets me apart from perhaps 95% of the world which DOES believe that there is Someone Out There Who Cares. So atheism/nondeism/naturalism is both liberating and isolating. The question is, who can one turn to talk about such things, other than through sites such as this one. So … thanks for the opening.
I’m rather impressed that Michael Behe reacted as he did, with such diginity. It must have been an enormous shock for him, and it speaks well of his quaility that he took the news of Leo’s deconversion in such an adult and decent manner. For what it’s worth, although it’s not something I’ve ever experience myself, I have an great deal of empathy for people who lose their faith which is slightly ironic given that I’ve occasionally behaved like a rabid dog towards proselytising creationists.
I hope your family finds the compassion to understand that faith is not something that can be forced.
There’s little doubt that this young man is quite intelligent and has put much though behind his shift in beliefs. However, he’s only 21 and I can’t help but wonder whether he’ll revert back to Catholicism. By his own admission, he’s led a fairly sheltered life. It will be interesting to see if in 10 years he is still an atheist and whether he has achieved some of his goals in writing refutations of such greats as Aquinas. Those of us who are well past 21 know that the true test of one’s belief or lack thereof is in enduring the trials and hardships of life. Hopefully, he will endure them in stride and remain on the side of reason, not reverting back to superstition. Only time will tell.
Well, I left the Catholic church at 15, and here, 40 years later, after all the trials and hardships of life, I am still an atheist. I’m fairly optimistic about this bright young man’s future. And toppling the arguments of such “greats” as Aquinas has become something of a minor industry. Everybody does it at some point or another. It’s not all that hard.
“I was already a firm believer in intelligent design given my Catholic faith”
I find bizarre that Mr. Behe makes this claim. As a matter of fact, I was raised in one of the most Catholic countries in the world (Italy) and never did I hear about intelligent design before moving to the US. The Catholic Church, actually, fully accepts the theory of evolution by natural selection (quite possibly one of the handful of smart things that they do). I wonder how it is that Catholic children in the US are taught that creationism is part of their faith. ‘Cause it’s not.
So much for critical thinking. If Behe’s doubts about the Bible were sparked by what Dawkins – who has a Ph.D. in zoology and knows almost nothing about philosophy, theology, or textual criticism – wrote, then you really have to wonder what else was going on in his life. Teenage rebellion most likely. Rational thinking not so much.