There is no real middle ground here. Jesus was NOT a good man he was either a lunatic OR He was God. He claimed to be God and there fore was either crazy or he was telling the truth, no good -moral man claims to be God himself. Jesus with his miracles edited out is a safe watered down Christianity that so many people would love to have it be. But its not, its polarizing by its very nature. That’s why Humanist don’t rail against Gandhi or Buddha or The Twelfth Imam, only Jesus is that polarizing. By the way the Faith is polarizing but god himself is a close personal God, He loves you and wants to have a relationship with you. My relationship has brought me unspeakable peace and joy beyond my own imagination
This whole post is parroted pre-organized responses that I’ve heard from Christians for a long time.
1. It wasn’t until many years after Jesus that anyone decided whether he was God or not.
2. Many men who are described as the ultimate “moral” man have called themselves God. That’s where religions come from.
3. Jesus without miracles is basically a guy saying that we should all try being nice to each other for a change. It’s a nice message until your mix it in with hell and hate that comes from Christianity.
4. God doesn’t seem to think he’s only a close personal god. In fact, there are almost no religions that suggest that is the case. They’re always creators, manipulators, genocidal maniacs, commanders of war, and world-destroyers.
5. The peace and joy you experience are achievable without a god. You should try it for a few years, and if it’s wrong, go back. He will forgive you.
Problem is Skinz…there is no real evidence that he claimed to be God. CS Lewis assumed there was, but he was simply presuming the historicity of the Gospels. In the decades since Lewis, biblical studies has shown that the Gospels are utterly untrustworthy when it comes to historical matters, so it’s likely that they would embellish Jesus’ own claims to make them sound like ones of divinity….THAT is the only reason by which to exclude a “middle ground”. Jefferson saw right through that false dichotomy, well before Lewis was even around.
Skinz–Where can anyone document what Jesus claimed? What we have are four hearsay witnesses who wrote what they claim Jesus said–and they sometimes contradict themselves.
Skinz08–The problem is that we don’t know what Jesus said. We had numerous gospels that were screened by the church centuries later and four were picked–and they contradict each other–and none of them were written by eyewitnesses. Would you accept this kind of evidence for ANY event in history?
Or maybe he was just wrong? Perhaps he honestly believed he was God but he was just mistaken, encouraged in his folly by those who believed in him. If God exists then, at least in principle, it’s a scientific question – all these contacts with people and reading of thoughts and miracles yet after all this time not one piece of actual evidence.
Buddha generally doesn’t get railed against cause you have people like the Dalai Lama saying that if science finds things that prove sacred tenets of Buddhism incorrect then Buddhism will have to change. Islam on the other hand often gets railed against both by atheists and by other religions – in it’s way it’s far more polarizing than Christianity as she is practiced by the mainstream.
Personally I think we should be railing against all religion and superstition in the most positive of ways: giving everybody the critical thinking skills to let them analyze these superstitions because we’ve yet to find one that doesn’t melt away under the torch of skeptical inquiry and reason. Why else do so many religions preach against reason and instead ask for blind, unswerving faith above all else?
If it takes a book written by many different people for a person to know how to live, well go for it. Jefferson removed the parts that were added by people topromote their own agenda, probably a higher status in society. For most of the so called miracles and rituals can be traced to ancient societies. As for the idea there is a God, my question is why must there be one in the first place?
promote their own agenda? these ‘agenda promoters’ were all martyred. they were killed for this. i’m sorry, but a willingness to go as far as to die for something, i believe, shows strongly that they were absolutely NOT doing this for any type of status. they sacrificed absolutely everything they had. they were imprisoned, stoned to death, beheaded, and even crucified… these were not men who were promoting ‘their own’ agenda.
Some people enjoy being martyrs and tend to try to provoke others as a result. Especially if they’ve been, say, indoctrinated into a set of beliefs that place martyrs on a sacred pedestal (there’s some status for you right there) and great rewards the supposed afterlife.
That said if being willing to die for your beliefs is so very noble, what does this say about all those who God allegedly ordered killed for their beliefs – were they not noble too?
Some years back, I published an item in The Gainesville (FL) Sun on the deists, particularly Jefferson, and I quoted several of his comments, including one in which he criticized Paul, whom he called “the first corrupter of the doctrine of Jesus.” A few weeks later, a woman wrote a letter to the editor, “quoting” Jefferson, in which he declared himself “a true disciple of Jesus, the son of God.” I challenged her to document that comment. Silence followed. I find it remarkable that some people who pride themselves on their “Christian morality” see no problem with inventing quotations (that woman may merely have quoted something she read in a blog) But, then again, it has been said that if all the purportedly “true pieces” of the cross on which Jesus was crucified were assembled, the result would be taller than the Empire State Building.
What if he’s just a dude who separated the parts of the bible that he thought applied to everyone’s everyday lives, regardless of religious beliefs.
I’ve read a couple articles on this today and I really like this one because it presents multiple angles to the story. I think the takeaway is that today we are all ridiculous fanatics–maybe we should try to figure things out for ourselves and leave others alone.
The part about a candidate today chopping up the bible cracks me up, fox news would implode.
“Jefferson was a deist,” says Ellis. “He believed God created the world but doesn’t have much to do with it any more.” Well; at least Jefferson had a sense of humor.
Jesus stated that Moses granted divorce. This tells me that some prophets and bible characters did not do only the work of God but also themselves. Therefore, we need to digest what Jefferson was telling us with his bible that God exists and the only moral code we should live by are the Ten Commandments and the precepts laid out by Christ in the four gospels. Paul albeit brilliant was an intellectual Jew raised as a Pharisee and by such was biased in his doctrinal approach hence we can not expect Paul or Moses or any other prophet to be totally without human bias espousing the intent and nature of God only for men are born corruptible to their very heart.
I am amazed at those who try to come across so educated or try to over think God. Put aside everything…even the Bible for a moment. Take a walk through nature. The stars we look up at, the flowers we smell, green grass or the blue sky. How can you take in the wonders of this world and those around us, and come to the conclusion that there is not a master designer? I’m amazed more at the faith you have in that all this just happened by itself. I look around and say, “How can there NOT be a GOD”!!!! It just might be you that has the greater faith.
I live in a city that spawls into other cities. Wen I walk outside and look up I see no stars, only planes we have built. There is more concrete than flowers. During the day the sky is tinged with smog. There is no escape from this ugly place unless you have the money, or the money to learn skills to leave.
To turn it around, if God loves nature, “How can there be a God?”
I don’t think Jesus died ,Joe and Nick rescued Him. He told the man on the cross next to him they’d be together , after completing his nazerite vow he shaved and cleaned up , was given some new fine duds and no one recognized him . Then when he found Saul he knocked the stew out of him! Goodness is so much smarter than evil people just don’t get the story!
The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.
— Thomas Jefferson, April 11, 1823
Jefferson was a Christian. He just had a great distrust in the church establishments. Looking at the catholic church, church of England, pseudo catholic protestant religions and even islam; they were wrought with theocracy, corruption, malice, greed, and tyranny. That last one was an obvious sore point for Jefferson, especially trying to help create a new government free from those. That does not mean he was agnostic, a heretic or anything else.
There is no real middle ground here. Jesus was NOT a good man he was either a lunatic OR He was God. He claimed to be God and there fore was either crazy or he was telling the truth, no good -moral man claims to be God himself. Jesus with his miracles edited out is a safe watered down Christianity that so many people would love to have it be. But its not, its polarizing by its very nature. That’s why Humanist don’t rail against Gandhi or Buddha or The Twelfth Imam, only Jesus is that polarizing. By the way the Faith is polarizing but god himself is a close personal God, He loves you and wants to have a relationship with you. My relationship has brought me unspeakable peace and joy beyond my own imagination
Humanist rail against Jesus?
This whole post is parroted pre-organized responses that I’ve heard from Christians for a long time.
1. It wasn’t until many years after Jesus that anyone decided whether he was God or not.
2. Many men who are described as the ultimate “moral” man have called themselves God. That’s where religions come from.
3. Jesus without miracles is basically a guy saying that we should all try being nice to each other for a change. It’s a nice message until your mix it in with hell and hate that comes from Christianity.
4. God doesn’t seem to think he’s only a close personal god. In fact, there are almost no religions that suggest that is the case. They’re always creators, manipulators, genocidal maniacs, commanders of war, and world-destroyers.
5. The peace and joy you experience are achievable without a god. You should try it for a few years, and if it’s wrong, go back. He will forgive you.
Problem is Skinz…there is no real evidence that he claimed to be God. CS Lewis assumed there was, but he was simply presuming the historicity of the Gospels. In the decades since Lewis, biblical studies has shown that the Gospels are utterly untrustworthy when it comes to historical matters, so it’s likely that they would embellish Jesus’ own claims to make them sound like ones of divinity….THAT is the only reason by which to exclude a “middle ground”. Jefferson saw right through that false dichotomy, well before Lewis was even around.
Skinz–Where can anyone document what Jesus claimed? What we have are four hearsay witnesses who wrote what they claim Jesus said–and they sometimes contradict themselves.
I am glad for you, but you are as crazy as Jesus.
Skinz08–The problem is that we don’t know what Jesus said. We had numerous gospels that were screened by the church centuries later and four were picked–and they contradict each other–and none of them were written by eyewitnesses. Would you accept this kind of evidence for ANY event in history?
Or maybe he was just wrong? Perhaps he honestly believed he was God but he was just mistaken, encouraged in his folly by those who believed in him. If God exists then, at least in principle, it’s a scientific question – all these contacts with people and reading of thoughts and miracles yet after all this time not one piece of actual evidence.
Buddha generally doesn’t get railed against cause you have people like the Dalai Lama saying that if science finds things that prove sacred tenets of Buddhism incorrect then Buddhism will have to change. Islam on the other hand often gets railed against both by atheists and by other religions – in it’s way it’s far more polarizing than Christianity as she is practiced by the mainstream.
Personally I think we should be railing against all religion and superstition in the most positive of ways: giving everybody the critical thinking skills to let them analyze these superstitions because we’ve yet to find one that doesn’t melt away under the torch of skeptical inquiry and reason. Why else do so many religions preach against reason and instead ask for blind, unswerving faith above all else?
If it takes a book written by many different people for a person to know how to live, well go for it. Jefferson removed the parts that were added by people topromote their own agenda, probably a higher status in society. For most of the so called miracles and rituals can be traced to ancient societies. As for the idea there is a God, my question is why must there be one in the first place?
promote their own agenda? these ‘agenda promoters’ were all martyred. they were killed for this. i’m sorry, but a willingness to go as far as to die for something, i believe, shows strongly that they were absolutely NOT doing this for any type of status. they sacrificed absolutely everything they had. they were imprisoned, stoned to death, beheaded, and even crucified… these were not men who were promoting ‘their own’ agenda.
Some people enjoy being martyrs and tend to try to provoke others as a result. Especially if they’ve been, say, indoctrinated into a set of beliefs that place martyrs on a sacred pedestal (there’s some status for you right there) and great rewards the supposed afterlife.
That said if being willing to die for your beliefs is so very noble, what does this say about all those who God allegedly ordered killed for their beliefs – were they not noble too?
PS Crucifixion is a doddle.
Some years back, I published an item in The Gainesville (FL) Sun on the deists, particularly Jefferson, and I quoted several of his comments, including one in which he criticized Paul, whom he called “the first corrupter of the doctrine of Jesus.” A few weeks later, a woman wrote a letter to the editor, “quoting” Jefferson, in which he declared himself “a true disciple of Jesus, the son of God.” I challenged her to document that comment. Silence followed. I find it remarkable that some people who pride themselves on their “Christian morality” see no problem with inventing quotations (that woman may merely have quoted something she read in a blog) But, then again, it has been said that if all the purportedly “true pieces” of the cross on which Jesus was crucified were assembled, the result would be taller than the Empire State Building.
What if he’s just a dude who separated the parts of the bible that he thought applied to everyone’s everyday lives, regardless of religious beliefs.
I’ve read a couple articles on this today and I really like this one because it presents multiple angles to the story. I think the takeaway is that today we are all ridiculous fanatics–maybe we should try to figure things out for ourselves and leave others alone.
The part about a candidate today chopping up the bible cracks me up, fox news would implode.
“Jefferson was a deist,” says Ellis. “He believed God created the world but doesn’t have much to do with it any more.” Well; at least Jefferson had a sense of humor.
Jesus stated that Moses granted divorce. This tells me that some prophets and bible characters did not do only the work of God but also themselves. Therefore, we need to digest what Jefferson was telling us with his bible that God exists and the only moral code we should live by are the Ten Commandments and the precepts laid out by Christ in the four gospels. Paul albeit brilliant was an intellectual Jew raised as a Pharisee and by such was biased in his doctrinal approach hence we can not expect Paul or Moses or any other prophet to be totally without human bias espousing the intent and nature of God only for men are born corruptible to their very heart.
I am amazed at those who try to come across so educated or try to over think God. Put aside everything…even the Bible for a moment. Take a walk through nature. The stars we look up at, the flowers we smell, green grass or the blue sky. How can you take in the wonders of this world and those around us, and come to the conclusion that there is not a master designer? I’m amazed more at the faith you have in that all this just happened by itself. I look around and say, “How can there NOT be a GOD”!!!! It just might be you that has the greater faith.
I live in a city that spawls into other cities. Wen I walk outside and look up I see no stars, only planes we have built. There is more concrete than flowers. During the day the sky is tinged with smog. There is no escape from this ugly place unless you have the money, or the money to learn skills to leave.
To turn it around, if God loves nature, “How can there be a God?”
I don’t think Jesus died ,Joe and Nick rescued Him. He told the man on the cross next to him they’d be together , after completing his nazerite vow he shaved and cleaned up , was given some new fine duds and no one recognized him . Then when he found Saul he knocked the stew out of him! Goodness is so much smarter than evil people just don’t get the story!
Jefferson also threw out the Old Testament. Why is there no discussion of Jefferson’s views of the Hebrew Bible?
One of my favorite founding fathers.
The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.
— Thomas Jefferson, April 11, 1823
Jefferson was a Christian. He just had a great distrust in the church establishments. Looking at the catholic church, church of England, pseudo catholic protestant religions and even islam; they were wrought with theocracy, corruption, malice, greed, and tyranny. That last one was an obvious sore point for Jefferson, especially trying to help create a new government free from those. That does not mean he was agnostic, a heretic or anything else.